Foundation by Issac Asimov, group readalong part 2
Finished Foundation and really enjoyed it. The questions below have been provided by Stainless Steel Droppings as part of the readalong Carl is hosting.
Salvador Hardin was the first character in the book that we got to spend any significant time with. What are your thoughts on the grande finale of his plotting, scheming and maneuvering to get the Foundation through to the next Seldon crisis?
Hardin was very politically astute and ruthless in that he saw a way forward and he took it – although he didn’t actually shed any blood during his coup (so you have to have some respect for that – in fact one of his sayings was about violence being the last refuge – sorry, can’t remember the exact wording!) Also, in playing off the other planets against each other (during the first crisis) he actually managed to save Foundation from Anacreon’s attempted take over – which Anacreon were couching in different terms but if you get down to the nitty gritty they were basically planning on overtaking what they saw as the weaker planet. And, finally, he was the one who came up with the whole idea of Scientism which ultimately resulted in all the knowledge being retained by Foundation who then managed to continue to make breakthroughs whilst many of the other planets became dependent and almost started to slip backwards in their thinking and knowledge. So, whilst I don’t think he’s the sort of character that you would tend to say ‘you really like’ I couldn’t help feeling that I wanted him to be successful – especially when Anacreon was about to attempt to attack Foundation for the second time. You have to hand it to him, he saved Foundation twice, kept the prophecy on track and came up with a concept that kept everyone in the dark whilst Foundation progressed. And, if he hadn’t, Foundation would more than likely have been defeated by any of those inhabitants of the nearby planets who had more fighting power. Brain over brawn saved the day.
What are your thoughts on the way in which control/manipulation to achieve Foundation ends began to shift with The Traders?
I suppose the Traders brought a lot more players into what was previously a fairly restricted game because they were travelling about such a lot and getting to more places. Ergo bigger field of play. Plus the traders are all about the profit – they manipulate things with a different incentive in mind. That being said – Mallow – manages to use his business acumen to make his opponents more vulnerable as they become more dependent on the goods he has provided. It’s a different sort of dependency than the religious aspect generated by Hardin but it was equally as effective.
One of the interesting things about Seldon’s psychohistory is how much one man can actually affect it. In Foundation we see characters like Hardin and Mallow as key figures for positioning things just right to work towards Seldon’s later predictions. Do you see this as a contradiction to what Seldon said about psychohistory at the beginning of our story or part of an overall plan? Discuss.
I think it was part of the overall plan – otherwise I don’t think Seldon would have needed to set up his little return ‘shows’ even going so far as to have seating ready. I think he looked ahead and predicted a crisis and saw a way of manipulating people into behaving in a certain way in order to divert that situation as it arose. I suppose that was a bit of a gamble but he was relying on people wanting to ‘divert’ any such crisis as it occurred.
Did you see similarities or differences between the way in which Salvador Hardin and Hober Mallow operated and what are your thoughts about this final section of Foundation? Would you have been content as a reader back then with how everything played out?
As I said above, I do see similarities with Hardin and Mallow – they were both ambitious and astute. They both understand how to manipulate people into a situation. They have an idea of how to control ‘the masses’ and they think ahead. Their techniques are different. Hardin uses the mystery of scientism to keep people in tow whilst Mallow uses people’s materialistic values. They both managed to keep Foundation safe from attack by stronger planets. I think I would have been content if I read this when first published. It’s a very intelligent piece of work on quite a large scale – in terms of what is taking place – not in terms of the size of the book!
Has your concept/thoughts of what Seldon was trying to do changed at all since the book began?
I’m really puzzled with the whole Seldon prediction. At the start of the book he almost comes across as fairly meek and mild, trying to save 1000s of years of chaos, etc, etc. He manoeuvres himself into a position where he is relegated to a small planet at the back of beyond and he takes with him most of the big thinkers, mathematicians and put bluntly braniacs. He then has everyone working on his encyclopaedia which he ultimately admits is a ruse – purely to keep everyone occupied for however many number of years. In the meantime the practice of psychohistory is slowly becoming less and less used – which was clearly part of the plan – I don’t suppose Seldon would want any other psychohistory experts coming along and predicting something different from himself after all. And, so far, what we are actually seeing is Foundation growing in knowledge and power as a result whilst the surrounding planets seem to be heading into the dark ages. So, at the start I was just thinking he was trying to be like some sort of saviour but now my suspicious brain thinks maybe he has a different plan. Not sure what that is. Perhaps he’s thinking that Foundation will eventually become ‘it’. Frankly, I’m clueless!! (Also, you can’t help wondering if Seldon had never existed and never made his predictions would anything have happened anyway?)
Any final thoughts on the story as a whole, its structure, what it did or did not accomplish, how it worked for you, etc?
I really enjoyed it. It’s different from the books I usually read but I wanted to read something outside my comfort zone and this fitted the bill. It is very narrative led and not big on character building but I really didn’t mind. I like that it’s a short, snappy read which for me made it easier to keep track of everyone! I suppose if you wanted to be critical you could say the book isn’t very descriptive but again I didn’t feel it was detrimental to the story. Plus, I tend to read quite a bit of fantasy/adventure – and those types of books can be really quite descriptive – but I think it’s easier to be descriptive about something that really is ‘a made up world’ because as an author you can let your imagination run riot and you’re not limited to what we already know – so you can have elves running around and cave trolls and nobody bats an eyelid. I think it’s different with most sci fi because quite often the stories seem to be not so much in a different or alternative world but set in the future and I think this means you’re probably a bit more restricted because you’re looking around you and trying to imagine how it will be different – and it’s pretty easy to get it wrong. Also, as the book ages I think too much detail can really start to ‘age’ it. Again – I think more so with this genre. Anyway, enough of that! Lost my thread there!
To round up – it was good and exceeded my expectations. Thanks Carl!
Foundation
The Positronic Man by Isaac Asimov
Just finished reading the Positronic Man. I’m currently reading the Foundation series by Isaac Asimov as part of a read-along hosted by Stainless Steel Droppings and I’m really enjoying the experience, plus I’ve finished the first book in the series and enjoyed it much more than I expected to. Positronic Man however is a different thing altogether – I loved this book, a lot. I’m not trying to say that I’m now hooked to sci-fi because I’ve not really read enough to be convinced but this is a brilliant story, really thought provoking and extremely touching.
Positronic Man tells the story of a robot, serial number NNDR 113. This is a series of robots that are being tested for roll out across the planet and Gerald Martin, a highly respected and influential member of the Legislature has undertaken to take one (along with varous other robots) by way of experiment to see how they cope and try to overcome the negativity that most people bear towards robots. At the start we are given a brief history, the year is 2007 – and you just basically have to imagine it’s further into the future, the human population is in decline due to smaller sized families and the fact that some people are moving out to live on the moon. Due to the dwindling population it has been necessary to introduce more robots in order to carry out everyday tasks but in spite of the need people are still cautious and suspicious.
So, Gerald Martin brings home his NDR and introduces him into the family where the youngest member of the family (little miss) names him Andrew and from there onwards we see Andrew become increasingly important to the family.
To be honest, it’s difficult to go into too much detail without giving away much of the plot. Basically as you read along you watch Andrew change, very slowly, at first just in small awarenesses – things that have changed in himself such as feelings which he believes he experiences even though you would think this impossible for a robot. And, slowly but surely, these small changes lead to other feelings. You watch as he undergoes personal struggles to become free and then later to bring about legislation to protect himself. He also undergoes massive changes to himself physically to the point where he looks human. You can’t help reading along and wondering why? Why is Andrew doing all these things. Basically he wants acceptance. He’s lived in a family and been accepted by them. He’s worked and gained both fame and fortune. He has a brilliant mind and has helped humanity – but he isn’t human.
I liked the way that Andrew succeeded in making changes almost in time with each new generation of the Martin family – who would always rally to his side and support him without reservation. Progress is slow though – it’s like each new generation can only accept so much change at any one given time before they become weary of Andrew’s pursuit of his goal. Yet, the Martin’s do really care about Andrew – in fact they love him and have accepted him as a member of his family. They fight for his causes, even if they don’t agree with them – because they allow him to chose his own path. They visit him and make him a part of their new families and they try to protect him against outside prejudices.
You can’t help liking Andrew, although there was a point where I wondered whether his changes might make him too human. He developed a short temper and the ability to manipulate and lie! But I still liked him – it was just as though the longer he lived he adapted and took on the ability to become cynical – he even became bored.
It’s odd as well in that Andrew’s story is almost told in isolation – you have a few people surrounding him at any given time but that’s about the limit and the setting is similarly small scale and relatively normal – there are no dramatic sweeping descriptions of how the world has changed. You know it’s changed. Firstly there are robots, secondly people are living on the moon and space travel is commonplace and thirdly Asimov does introduce a few snippets here and there such as travel, dress sense, etc. But I think the fact that there isn’t too much detail is better because it allows you to focus on Andrew’s story. Asimov does go into quite a bit of detail about Andrew and his ‘workings’ but it’s not overwhelmingly ‘techy’ and easy to understand.
Anyway, I’m not going to go too much farther. I really enjoyed it and was totally immersed in Andrew’s world. On top of that there are all sort of thought provoking ideas not to mention quite a lot of ideas that I think have contributed to other books and on top of that a really good and emotional ending.
This is a great book. I really can’t recommend it enough.
Rating A+
Darkness Falls, Cate Tiernan
Just finished reading Darkness Falls by Cate Tiernan, No.2 in the Immortal Beloved series of books. (If you haven’t read book 1 this may contain spoilers for that book).
This book continues where the last book finished. Nastasya is still at River’s Edge, the ‘sort of’ rehab centre for immortals. She’s still fighting her own inner demons between darkness and lightness and is also suffering from some bleak premonitions of bad things yet to come. On top of this her behaviour seems to be becoming more erratic, she’s arguing with people more, is constantly tired and her attempts at spells are going disastrously wrong. The tension is building and you can sense that things are going to go horribly wrong.
Again I enjoyed this book. It’s easy to read and I like Nastasya – although I sometimes literally wanted to throttle her for her self indulgent, whineyness and rush headlong into bad decisions-ness – note to self, patience is a virtue! Anyway, in spite of that, I do like Nat and I think this is another enjoyable story. If you enjoyed the first I have no doubt you will enjoy the second.
Similarly to the first novel this is not a fast paced story. It’s a slow burner. The tension mounts slowly in a way in which you’re actually not aware that it is mounting until everything starts to spiral downwards rapidly. The last third of the book is quite dramatic. It’s not difficult to see where things are heading but even so it’s all a bit gruesome. It’s difficult to write anything more without giving away too many spoilers so I’m not really going to elaborate on the story.
What I enjoyed more with this story was finding out a little bit more about River and taking a look at some of her history. We also get to see a few more snapshots out of Nat’s history which were very illuminating. The whole thing of Nat coming to terms with who she is was well portrayed. It’s easy to be judgemental of her at times and wish that she’d stop being so self berating – not everything is her fault after all and given the fact that she’s over 400 years old you would expect a little bit more maturity. But, when you look a bit closely at Nat and her life, she spent the first half of her life running from one heinous act to the next – that’s one thing that does come across in this book. Being Immortal means that Nat has lived through a lot of bad times and a lot of loss, not perhaps as glamorous as it may seem then living forever. On top of that she doesn’t handle personal situations, attachments, conflicts or people very well and at the first sign of tension runs away and puts her head back into the sand. Or in this case runs back to her comfort zone. So, she hasn’t really grown up in a way. The satisfying thing is that she does reach a few decisions that will be life changing.
In terms of criticisms – the story is a bit slow to start off with and I felt that there was a certain point where it dragged a little. But the ending definitely makes up for that.
On top of all that Reyn is still very much in the frame and still pursuing Nat. I could have actually used a little bit more character development of Reyn as at the moment he feels a bit flat – still very easy to read about though!
All in all, a good read, I’m not sure if I enjoyed it as much as the first but I will definitely pick up No.3 to see how Nat’s story eventually plays out.
Rating B+
Darkness Falls
Foundation by Isaac Asimov, Group readalong part 1
During January I am attempting to read more sci fi and as part of this I am taking part in Stainless Steel Droppings group readalong. This kicks off with the first of the Foundation novels by Isaac Asimov. Below are my thoughts and comments in response to the questions that have been posted for the first part of the readalong:
For the purpose of satisfying curiosity, is this your first time reading Foundation or have you read it before?
I’m a relative newbie to sci fi so this is my first time.
For those who have read it before, how has it held up to your memory/feelings about previous reads?
For those reading Foundation for the first time, what expectations did you have going in and has it met them or surprised you in any way?
Okay, to be honest I didn’t really have any expectations reading this for the first time. In fact I really didn’t know what to expect at all. Also, whilst I’m being honest, and don’t hate me for this, but I would never in a million years have picked up this book and my reason for saying so is totally fickle – the cover! I know you can’t judge a book by its cover but it would have just put me off – sorry, I know I’m going to get beaten with a big verbal stick now for not liking the cover and for being fickle enough to not pick up a book because of its cover but there it is. I suppose, having said that I’m now going to have to backtrack a little on the first part of my answer because I think I probably did have an inkling of an expectation that I would dislike the content purely because of the cover! And, I’ve been pleasantly surprised because after I got into the first few chapters and became aware of the structure I think it’s really good! The biggest surprise for me with this book is that I expected it to be overloaded with sci-fi-ness and it isn’t really (again don’t beat me with a big verbal stick please!), I can’t help feeling that if we took away the strange people/planet names and took out a few of the gadgets it would be like a political/historical read. I did also have an expectation that maybe quite a bit of the content would just go over my head – but again I’ve been pleasantly surprised.
What are your thoughts about the structure of the novel thus far? (I am referring to the brief glimpses of different parts of the history of the Foundation with big time gaps between events in the novel)
I actually like the structure – it’s like a series of little mini stories really that are all connected and given the timeframe involved I don’t see how it could have been structured any differently – unless there were hundreds of books that is!
What are your initial thoughts on the field of psychohistory?
I found it intriguing and I guess the whole thing comes across as plausible somehow, purely because of the numbers of people involved. But, I’m not totally convinced that, given these numbers and timeframe concerned, Dr Seldon could have been quite so precise with some of his predictions. I suppose it makes it more readable that way though. It puts me in mind of what we would call ‘destiny’ or ‘fate’?
What, if anything, is holding your interest thus far, what are you enjoying about Foundation?
What I’m really enjoying about the story is all the twists and turns of the characters and how they keep playing their own little games in order to manoeuvre this way or that. It feels like a giant game of space chess.
What, if anything, are you not enjoying about Foundation?
I don’t know that I would say I’m not enjoying anything in particular but in terms of little niggles or criticisms there have been a few instances where the speech has felt a little too familiar – things that we would say now. I’m not saying that people wouldn’t still use that same language that we do but it’s just a surprise with some of the phrases, especially when you consider how much our language has changed since for example the writing of Shakespeare. So when you consider the number of years forward that we’ve moved for this story (in fact so far forward that nobody remembers which planet humans started from) I’m not sure there wouldn’t be some differences. But, and now I’m going to talk myself out of that criticism, I think it would annoy me to read the book if the author had tried to make up new words of sentence structures. I did read another book recently where the author had attempted this and it just came across as irritating.
You may have covered this in answering the other questions, but if not, what are your thoughts/feelings about the Galactic Empire. Is it a practical thing to have a galaxy spanning government? Can you imagine such a thing and do you think it would work?
I don’t think it would work – and I don’t think it will ultimately work in this series (but that remains to be seen). It’s not like it hasn’t been attempted throughout history, the Romans, Alexander the Great, Napoleon, but in Foundation this is on such a magnificent scale to make it virtually impossible – it seems to me difficult enough for all the inhabitants of a planet to get along let alone lots of different planets on a system where they’re light years away from each other!
What are your thoughts on Hardin’s creation of a religious system in which to house scientific ideas and technology while keeping the users of that science and technology in the dark?
I thought Hardin’s invention of a religious system was inspirational in this story. He gave everybody a set of beliefs to follow which they just stuck to dogmatically, retaining all the knowledge to the Foundation. In doing so it’s almost like the rest of the system is going backwards and losing the knowledge they once had as they become more and more reliant upon these beliefs. It feels like ultimately the Foundation will have become the big ‘I am’ and nobody will be in a position to threaten them.
Thanks Carl for these questions/discussion points. I look forward to the next set.
Lynn
A Journey to the Centre of the Earth by Jules Verne
8 January 2012
Filed under Book Reviews
Tags: A Journey to the Centre of the Earth, Jules Verne, Vintage Sci Fi
Just finished reading A Journey to the Centre of the Earth which I have read as part of the Little Red Reviewer’s Vintage Sci Fi (not a challenge). I don’t suppose this story needs much introduction really. In a nutshell this is a story of a professor and his nephew who, after discovering a mysterious parchment and uncovering the content embark upon a dangerous journey. A journey to the centre of the earth. Following in the footsteps of Arne Saknussemm – an explorer who made the same journey a few hundred years earlier.
I’ve been meaning to read this book for some time and so this none challenge gave me a little push in the right direction. I really enjoyed this story and the way it’s told. The story is told in the form of a memoir by the ever complaining nephew Harry. Harry does not want to undertake the journey, he is very aware of the dangers and the idea of climbing down into a volcano doesn’t appeal. To be honest Harry does come across as a little bit ‘cowardly’ at points but that being said I’m totally on his side in not wanting to climb into a volcano – extinct or/and definitely not otherwise!
This is a really imaginative story – the idea of coming up with the worlds beneath the crust of the earth – I’m not sure that anything has been done like that since this book? I must admit that upon reading, and already having seen the film and a tv adaptation some time ago I did have preconceived ideas of what to expect and I suppose the element of surprise was stripped away in certain areas. However, the book does still hold some surprises.
What I found really enjoyable was the different characters, the uncle, cool and stubborn who absolutely refuses to be thwarted in his goal to reach the centre of the earth and never doubts their ability to succeed. Harry, who for the most part of the book, spends his time worrying about every conceivable way in which they may die upon the adventure whether by earthquake, volcanic eruption, starvation, lack of water or any number of other things that I won’t go into. And Hans, the Eider Duck Hunter, who is their steady and reliable guide. Strangely enough, and despite all their education and knowledge neither the professor or his nephew would never have stood any chance at all with their adventure if not for Hans – he is the definite unsung hero! And, more to the point with these characters, is the way they interact with each other which at times is very amusing. We get to hear all Harry’s inner thoughts, and then we hear him voicing these to his uncle, couched in ways not to aggravate (because the professor can have a bit of a temper) and then we hear the professor shoot Harry’s theories down in his calm, collected way.
The other thing I really liked was the old fashioned style of story telling and writing which lends the story a strangely amusing appeal. One particular part of the story where the adventurers have uncovered a most fantastic cavern of huge proportions and with some strange inhabitants Harry, who is unable to believe what he is actually seeing but has no choice but to do so, says ‘I looked, shrugging my shoulders, decided to push incredulity to its very limits. But whatever might have been my wish, I was compelled to yield to the weight of ocular demonstration.’ ! who on earth says that – it made me laugh (in other words seeing is believing). That phrase is a definite keeper.
Now, in all this, one thing that you must be aware of is that although Jules Verne was considered to be something of an expert in this area of writing you clearly have to remember when this book was written. Advances in science are always moving forward and therefore some of the speculation and theories of the Professor and Harry have dated or become completely null and void. The other thing is you really do have to suspend some of your disbelief in certain areas – for example, the notion of building a raft out of bits and pieces of wood to set sail on a massive ocean – which can withstand the brunt of terrible weather – is a bit of a stretch, as is the method of expulsion of our travellers from their volcano. But, don’t we suspend our disbelief in many of the works of fiction we read? I suppose what makes you more critical of these stretches of imagination with this particular novel is that it comes across as very factual with all sorts of detail to try and lend it credulity so when you do read certain areas you can’t help thinking ‘no way’ – I suppose that shows the talent of Jules Verne really in that he carries you along on this tale and makes you feel it’s believable (but for a few parts).
All in all, a great read.
In conclusion, my particular book says on the jacket that Jules Verne is considered to be the father of science fiction. Not sure if that’s something that everybody will agree with or not. He certainly tells a good and imaginative story backed up with a lot of what was, then, considered to be believable science. Personally, if I had to make a choice, I would probably veer towards HG Wells, simply because I think some of his works, and The Time Machine in particular, are so brilliant. Maybe it’s down to the different writing styles and I suppose the fact that my copy of JttCoTE is a translation, and not possible the best one produced! But there it is.
A fun read.
Rating B+
