Foundation and Empire by Issac Asimov, group read along part 2
Just posting my answers to this weeks questions to the final group read along hosted by Carl at Stainless Steel Droppings. Sorry these are late but I’m away at the moment and don’t always have access to wi fi. If you haven’t already read this book this post will contain spoilers.
Okay, here are the questions. And remember, SPOILERS!!!
1. While it didn’t break new ground, Asimov did have a female character who played a major role in this second half of the book. What are your thoughts on how Asimov portrayed Bayta?
I thought Asimov was trying hard to make Bayta equal – and I think he did a pretty good job considering how long ago this book was written. Okay, she wasn’t totally badass – but she was confident in what seemed to be a man’s world, she spoke her mind but on top of all that she kept her personality. I liked her – she brought a different aspect to the story – and lets face it – without her the Mule would have eventually succeeded. I like the way that Asimov gave her such an important role and that the role she actually played was made possible because she was such a likable character. If she had been anything less then the Mule would have treated her the same as he did the others and so her openness and acceptance were what helped her.
2. Now that you know the Mule’s identity, were you surprised or had you figured it out along the way? If you did figure it out, how did that affect your reading of the book?
Well, I would like to act all superior here and say I had it all figured out but I didn’t really! I thought there was something suspicious about the Mule – particularly after he got taken captive by Captain Han Pritchard and then seemed to be trying very hard to convince Toran about the motives of the other ship/crew. It seemed a bit odd – and I think at the back of my mind I’d started to have an inkling that something was rotten in Denmark but, the thing is – I liked the Clown – and so I don’t think I wanted to make that connection. I felt a bit sad that the clown was the mule.
3. In previous posts we discussed the role individuals seemed to have in the unfolding of Seldon’s plan. How do you feel about the issue now that we’ve seen an individual derail Seldon’s plans?
I found Foundation’s failure in a way shocking – but, I think Asimov had already started to steer us away from the feelings we originally felt. All along we were rooting for the Foundation – and wanting it to succeed but at the start of this book you realised just how much it had already changed and I think this somehow made you feel differently. So, I was shocked, but not as disappointed as I thought I would be, in fact I already feel like my allegiances are starting to be tweaked with! Maybe we’re now going to be introduced to the second Foundation. All along, we’ve all said how could Seldon predict and allow for everything! And here we find out that he realised he couldn’t and has in fact got a Plan B.
4. Did it surprise you in the end that the Mule was allowed to get away? Did Asimov make you feel any pity or empathy for the Mule, either as the clown and/or when you discovered he was the Mule?
I don’t think that Bayta and Toran could have stopped the Mule even if they had wanted to – and it seemed to me that they were aware of that themselves. He would simply have dominated their minds. I did feel sorry for him – I’m not saying it makes him right with his actions but I couldn’t help having some sympathy – particularly when he was revealing the weakness in himself – in wanting someone to simply like him for who and what he was. Ironic really that he was going all over the galaxy dominating people’s minds in order to ensure their loyalty but in the end he wanted a true friend. As I mentioned above, I couldn’t help liking the Mule in his role as the clown and so I couldn’t help wanting to still like him.
5. How do you feel this story compared to all the other stories that have made up the two Foundation novels we’ve read?
I liked Foundation very much but I actually preferred the story in Foundation and Empire. I think that is because we got to spend more time getting to know the individuals and the story had more time to develop.
6. What final thoughts do you have about Foundation and Empire?
I think this has been a great choice for a readalong – there’s such a lot taking place it gives you plenty of food for thought – not to mention discussion. And, it’s been really interesting seeing everyone’s different takes so far and how, for example, I might like someone that somebody else really dislikes! Nothing seems cut and dry. Also, I have to hand it to Asimov. Such scope and vision not to mention so many ideas that seem to have been taken up and developed elsewhere. He’s like the founder!
Great choice, thanks Carl.
Foundation and Empire by Isaac Asimov, Group readalong part 1 Chapters 1 – 13
29 January 2012
Filed under Book Reviews
Tags: Foundation and Empire, Isaac Asimov, Vintage Sci Fi
This week I picked up Foundation and Empire as part of a group read along being hosted by Carl at Stainless Steel Droppings. We’ve read Chapters 1-13 and the questions and discussion points are below. If you’re not taking part but are interested head on over to Carl’s site and check it out! I should also say that if you haven’t read this or the previous novel, Foundation, then spoilers may be contained below.
1. In the opening chapters of Foundation and Empire we get to see things from the Imperial side. What are your thoughts on this part of the book? Were you surprised to find parts of the Galactic Empire that still seemed to be thriving?
It puts me in mind very much of the earlier comments made after the first readalong comparing the Empire with that of the Roman Empire. We have an Emperor who is constantly aware of the threat to his life from the ‘next’ strong general (which is how the current Emperor came to rule after all). Mistrust and jealousy are rife. And we have this sort of spoiled and pampered planet that actually contributes virtually nothing to anything and by sheer brute force has the surrounding planets subservient to it’s needs. Strangely, even though it seems to be thriving it isn’t really. It’s losing any sort of knowledge that it once had and is just a hotbed of maneouvering, bribery, manipulation and internal politics with the Emperor sat in the middle of his web ultimately trusting no one.
2. The examination of psychohistory continues in this book. What are your thoughts about the statement that was made: “Seldon’s laws help those who help themselves” in light of our previous discussions about Seldon, his predictions, and the interaction of the individuals that we are exposed to in the story?
Psychohistory was explored a bit more this time round and I suppose it was shown that the actions of the individuals aren’t necessarily influencing the outcomes. But, even though that might be the case, I do think Seldon’s laws help those who help themselves. Basically there are always people who are quick to see and take advantage of a situation if possible and the predictions by Seldon helped those people to be in a position to do so.
3. How do you feel about Devers, Barr and Bel Riose? Did you like this section of the book and/or these characters? Was there anything about their stories that stood out to you, entertained you, annoyed you?
I really liked Devers and Barr and thought they were a really good pair to read about. I enjoyed their partnership. Devers insinuating his way into Riose’s captivity and behaving as though he knew nothing but all along with his own agenda and Barr who was just totally laid back in his confidence that nothing would change the outcome. Although, even though Barr insisted throughout that the Empire would fail he still allowed himself to go and try one last trick with Devers. I liked the twists – if I’m going to be honest I did keep thinking that their efforts would have an impact, and I suppose the previous stories gave an expectation of this so this felt like a learning experience – I felt like I hadn’t been listening! All along we’re told Seldon bases his prediction on huge numbers not individual actions and yet I got totally sucked into Devers and Barr’s mission to see the Emperor. I wouldn’t say I disliked Riose although I don’t suppose he was a particularly nice fella – not to the extent that I disliked Brodrig. He was young and ambitious and obviously knew what he was about – his failure was ultimately caused by the paranoia of the Emperor who was afraid of anybody else’s success. In terms of being annoyed – I suppose Trantor was annoying – it didn’t seem to have anybody decent at all – everybody seemed to be corrupt or open to bribes.
4. Perhaps continuing from Question 2, do you agree or disagree, and what are your thoughts on, Barr’s devotion to Seldon and his belief that the “dead hand of Seldon” was guiding the events that led up to Riose’s undoing.
I suppose, given that a lot of Barr’s knowledge of Seldon/Foundation had been gathered secondhand over a fairly lengthy period of time it would be easy to wonder why he was so confident about events. But, I think that he was also playing a game. It’s like his very confidence and calm demeanour was almost infuriating to Riose and was goading him to take the action he did. I can’t help thinking that Barr played Riose very well – he was the one who told Riose about Foundation in the first place and piqued his interest enough to want to go to war and really it helped to serve the rebellion that was brewing on his own planet so I thought it was very cleverly done. (Of course I’ve probably got the wrong end of the stick there!)
5. Did you think I was lying to you when I said in previous conversations that there are more female characters in books 2 and 3, LOL, since we didn’t get to Bayta until near the end of this portion of the read?
I knew we’d get to that part eventually! All good things to those who wait…
6. We haven’t spent much time with them yet, but talk about your initial impressions of Toran and Bayta.
Well, if first impressions are anything to go by, and unless something goes horribly amiss, I think I’m going to enjoy reading more about Toran and Bayta and I’m intrigued about this Mule not to mention the end of Chapter 13! I was pleased at how much I enjoyed reading about the two of them – it felt a little more grounded almost with the two of them new to a relationship and going to meet the ‘in-laws’. I didn’t think that I was particularly missing the inclusion of females in the stories so far but maybe on a different level I was because I thought these chapers were really good. I think Bayta is going to be resourceful and tough, she’s confident and not afraid to have her own opinions. I was really surprised about her description of Foundation – I’m probably not going to articulate this well but it felt to me like it was going down hill rather more quickly that I thought and seemed to be mimicking the mistakes of the Empire. It puts me in mind of Animal Farm – the animals want change and they’re all going to work together – but ultimately does it work? Foundation started out different, no power, small planet, clever people, not aggressive but slowly and surely they seem turning into a mini Empire!
Thanks Carl
Books and travelling with Lynn 